Southern Baptist Convention bans female pastors, ejecting several churches in the process

Geoff Bennett Geoff Bennett

Shoshana Dubnow Shoshana Dubnow

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The Southern Baptist Convention moved to strike women from holding leadership roles in its churches. The organization also voted to finalize the expulsion of two churches for having female pastors, Saddleback Church in Southern California and Fern Creek Baptist Church in Louisville, Kentucky. Geoff Bennett discussed the impact of the decision with Fern Creek's Rev. Linda Barnes Popham.

Geoff Bennett:

The Southern Baptist Convention, the nation's largest Protestant denomination, has moved dramatically to bar women from holding leadership roles in its churches.

The organization voted overwhelmingly yesterday to finalize the expulsion of two churches for having female pastors. That's Saddleback Church in Southern California and Fern Creek Baptist Church in Louisville, Kentucky.

Before the vote, Rick Warren, the retired founding pastor of Saddleback, one of the biggest and most prominent churches in the country, tried making a case for unity to those attending the annual meeting in New Orleans by focusing on the faith's message.

Rick Warren, Founding Pastor, Saddleback Church:

Now, the Baptist faith and message is 4,032 words. Saddleback disagrees with one word. That's 99.9999999999999 in agreement. Isn't that close enough?

Geoff Bennett:

But his plea was unsuccessful.

Let's dig deeper into the impact with someone directly affected by it, the Reverend Linda Barnes Popham. She's led Fern Creek Baptist Church for over 30 years.

Thank you for being with us.

Rev. Linda Barnes-Popham, Pastor, Fern Creek Baptist Church:

You're so welcome. Thank you.

Geoff Bennett:

And, as we mentioned, the vote by the Southern Baptist Convention was overwhelming. Members voted by a ratio of 9-1 to expel your church and Saddleback.

And Albert Mohler, who is president of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville, he explained his opposition to female pastors this way:

Albert Mohler, President, Southern Baptist Theological Seminary:

It's a matter of biblical commitment, a commitment to the scripture that unequivocally, we believe, limits the office of pastor to men. It is an issue of biblical authority.

Geoff Bennett:

And there are other SBC members who note that the Roman Catholic Church also does not allow women to serve as pastors or priests.

How do you respond to that, that this is a matter of biblical integrity?

Rev. Linda Barnes-Popham:

I certainly believe it's a matter of biblical integrity.

However, I also know that the spirit gives illumination to our hearts and minds, and we're able to interpret the Scripture through the Holy Spirit's leading. I believe that the Bible is God's perfect word. I believe every word in the Bible, but there are passages such as those in 1st Timothy, in Corinthians that our church would interpret differently than Albert Mohler interprets them and, obviously, the majority of the people who attend a convention meeting interpret them.

Geoff Bennett:

Why did you want to maintain your membership?

There are any number of Baptist churches that are thriving that aren't affiliated with the Southern Baptist Convention. What significance did membership hold for you and your congregation?

Rev. Linda Barnes-Popham:

It's been like family for all of these many years.

And we're heavily involved in the Woman's Missionary Union in Southern Baptist life. And we like partnering. We like the evangelistic zeal of the Southern Baptist Convention. We like partnering in missions. And so, therefore, we have continued, even though we have not agreed on everything. There are many things in which I disagree with different leaders and different pastors.

But I just believe that we're supposed to be under this great umbrella together, because we agree that Jesus Christ is lord, and he's the reason we're here in the first place, to share the Gospel of Jesus Christ. And we ought to be able to be partners together in that. That should not at all divide us.

But, instead, the Bible has been used like a weapon of some of these folks, a weapon against those of us who believe it as strongly as they do. We just interpret it differently.

Geoff Bennett:

On that point, do you see a political aspect to this? Because there are people who point to what they see as the internal politics, that this vote came on the heels of a devastating report of sexual abuse within the SBC by male church leaders.

And, more broadly, there is a wing of the Southern Baptist Convention that wants to reverse what it sees as a liberal drift.

Rev. Linda Barnes-Popham:

Oh, I wholeheartedly agree that there are internal political maneuverings, deeds done in darkness, in which we won't really understand.

The reason I believe that is, two years ago, only two years ago, the Credentials Committee of the Southern Baptist Convention deemed us in friendly cooperation with the convention. And what happened in two years? How could, two years ago, many of the same committee members want to keep us and then, two years after that, decide that we are no longer in friendly cooperation?

And they let me know then by their spokesperson we were in friendlier cooperation with the Southern Baptist Convention and with the Baptist faith and message than many, many of the other churches. So, what changed? Of course, there are some kind of political maneuverings going on.

Geoff Bennett:

As I understand it, after you spoke on the floor at the annual meeting, a woman from Texas brought her daughter over to you, and the daughter was weeping.

I wonder if you can share that story.

Rev. Linda Barnes-Popham:

Oh, wow, what a poignant moment.

The child came over. I had never seen this girl she comes to me and is sobbing. I took her in my arms. And she said: "I'm Lottie. I'm 14 years old. And at age 11, I knew God called me into ministry. What can I do? I don't have a place to serve."

And her family, her parents are heavily steeped in Southern Baptist life, just like we were here. So what's that child going to do?

We promised little Lottie that, when she graduates from high school, she can come here as one of our interns, and we will help to mentor her, as well as having her wonderful parents that we just met who will mentor her as well. But we're happy to do that. And wherever we might be as a church at that time, I'm sure we will embrace little Lottie.

Geoff Bennett:

Well, how do you feel on a personal level — you have been affiliated with Fern Creek for some 40 years, you have been serving as pastor for more than 30 years — to have fellow faith leaders reject you, when you, I imagine, believe in your heart that you were following a calling?

How does that feel?

Rev. Linda Barnes-Popham:

It is hurtful.

But I have to say, there's some righteous indignation in here too because of the hypocrisy that I feel like is going on.

The same people who have told me to my face, so many of those, what an exemplary church, and we wish other Southern Baptist churches were like you, I have heard that so many times over the years, that I didn't even think that this time would ever come in Southern Baptists life, because we're very evangelical. We're mission-minded. We're conservative. And I just didn't think it would happen to us.

Geoff Bennett:

What message do you think this vote sends to women who serve in leadership roles throughout the church, whether it's leading the music ministry or the youth ministry, running Sunday school?

Rev. Linda Barnes-Popham:

I think it says, women, go somewhere else. Find a place of service outside of this denomination. We really don't want to deal with you.

But the message that I want to give to the world really is about Jesus Christ, that Jesus Christ is lord. And let's do that together, male and female, and sons and daughters are prophesying. And let's do that together in partnership.

And I do believe that Jesus would say to those, woe to you. I think he would sadly say, woe to you, scribes and pharisees and teachers that the law, you hypocrites. You are not majoring on the right things. You have departed from the most important things. You have neglected the things that God wants you to be doing.

I think it's just a sad day.

Geoff Bennett:

Linda Barnes Popham is pastor at Fern Creek Baptist Church.

Pastor Linda, thanks so much for your time.

Rev. Linda Barnes-Popham:

Thank you.

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Geoff Bennett Geoff Bennett

Geoff Bennett serves as co-anchor of PBS NewsHour. He also serves as an NBC News and MSNBC political contributor.

Shoshana Dubnow Shoshana Dubnow